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Hey there Kelties  [sorry] - I have pics of my new (2011) Yamaha High Thrust 9.9 motor in the well and pics of my propane tank locker upgrade to share as soon as I get to it. But I have a question now re Genoa sizing for a new furling system.
I AM installing a foresail furler this spring and need to get going on getting the new sail ordered. For a number of reasons I have chosen to go with the Harken MKIV Unit 0. I will need to have a new Genoa made as my current 150 is original. I assumed I would have the new Genoa made as a 150 to replace the original. But a reputable sail maker suggested I think about a 135, and add a drifter to my inventory for light winds, thinking the 150 is not as efficient. So I am checking on others' experience, ideas, suggestions before ordering my new head sail. (BTW: I single hand mostly, and day sail in Lake Ontario with intentions to start cruising some this year, eventually extending my range up the St Lawrence some and maybe eventually to the Maritimes in another season.) Thanks much & it's just around the corner, eh! - David
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We are just addressing the need to replace the propane system and of course the locker in the 760 is pretty small. Did you build a bigger locker or do something innovative to accommodate a bigger tank??
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Greetings Sean! - My project would fall into the "innovative" category [smile]. I did not go to a bigger tank, as I wasn't planning on cooking for long cruise durations, and I believe it would be possible to create a safe hanger for a spare tank in the anchor locker which is already has drain holes. In fact I was surprised to eventually see the 5-lb tank that came with my the boat still had a couple years before expiring. LOL - It turned out about the only thing I didn't replace in the process, while initially thinking the tank would be among the 1st things to go [read on]. Given I didn't see a great way to add a new locker in the area of the existing one without removing the locker and cutting a hole in the seat for a prefab top entry, or moving forward, past the gas tank and into the space directly under the port side seat/hatch, then losing storage/access space for other things, I decided to retrofit the existing locker with a sealed hatch cover. That took some planning, dimensioning and fabricating, but I came up with a clear polycarbonate sealed, hinged hatch cover with 2 relatively quick-release wing-nut-based hatch cover latches at the top of the opening. Basically, I came up with a see-through, hinged, sealed cover super-imposed over the original rectangular opening of the existing tank "cubby" - the original that was open to the motor well area. (Actually, when I 1st bought the boat, I installed the through-hull fittings from the cubby and to/through the hull, with a drain hose, to create the required locker bottom drain. That itself was not without sizable deliberations, lol.) I thought the sealed cover itself would be the greatest challenge, given the space, multiple angles, keeping an adequate seal area around the opening, choosing and mounting the hatch latches, etc, etc. After I completed the cover 2 seasons ago, I proceeded to install the tank and hardware into the locker last season before going on a cruise. That's when I discovered there's barely enough room around the tank to fit a Kleenex sideways [smile]. I had wrongly assumed the original designer had put some space around the tank. There is some front to back space (between the opening and the back of the locker), and some on the upper sides at the tank's valve guard area. But I had to fit the required pressure gauge and a new solenoid. The original solenoid "clicked" when powered, but it wasn't sealed at the connections. Think Apollo 13 - A spark in a contained "flammable" space. But the solenoid needs to stay in the locker, otherwise you are creating another gas connection outside the sealed locker. But with luck, sweat and some butt-puckering (not to mention embarrassing the club - the entire bay - with my howling, grunting, and screaming expletives (lol), I got it all to fit!! I remain amazed and feeling blessed to this day. With my new Yamaha 9.9 motor, the hatch now bumps into the motor's cowling when I open it, not allowing enough room to slide in the tank. (Does it ever end?) So in order to change/refill the tank, I remove the motor cowling, remove one of the latch catches off the locker hatch cover, turn the motor at just the right angle and voila, the tank can go in and out. Actually, it is not as bad as it sounds. It only takes a couple minutes and a screw driver. Plus, I can see the gauge through the clear cover, and I can open the cover to turn the tank valve on/off, all without any extra effort. (BTW: I just noticed that Yamaha has redesigned the 9.9 with a smaller size, almost seeming to have us Kelt-7.60-ers in mind. The cowling is smaller as well as the front-to back block size, probably eliminating all our fit challenges, short of the high-thrust prop not fitting through the hole.) To finish the LPG system, I purchased a new flexible gas line, that is continuous and sized to go from the tank to the stove, with the connections at the tank and stove only. It passes through the locker through a new "bladder" sealed fitting. The kind that seals on a new hole in the locker wall, and has a screw cap that the gas line passes through, that tightens the bladder around the hose. Lastly, I had to purchase a new stove, as the original had a hose-clamp fitting that was braised on, making a direct connect with the new LPG hose fitting impossible: http://www.force10.com/files/46238%20Dimensions.pdf http://www.force10.com/gas_cooktop_2burner.html Lastly, lastly, I also added a gas sensor/alarm in the stove well behind the stove. Most would probably say it's easier to go with an alcohol stove. But I love to cook and wanted the capacity of gas. In fact I made some pretty good gourmet-ish meals already. Lots of fun and on a non-rainy day, almost perfect staging space between the companionway top step, the table, and a little fold-out shelf to the right of the stove. I wouldn't have been able to do my cooking style with an alcohol stove. I think I have some pics of the cover, if you'd like, but not of the internal hardware assembly and new stove/sensor. Let me know and good luck! - David David J. Wysocki, M.Sc., OT Reg. (Ont.) 1055 Dunbarton Rd Pickering, ON L1V 1H1 Ph: 905-492-1915 Fax: 905-831-8798 [hidden email] From: Sean [via Kelt Sailboat Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: April-13-13 4:46 PM
To: David - Moon Chaser
Subject: Re: Genoa Size for Foresail Furler We are just addressing the need to replace the propane system and of course the locker in the 760 is pretty small. Did you build a bigger locker or do something innovative to accommodate a bigger tank??
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Thanks for the prompt reply and insight. Our acquisition is a new one, so you can imagine the challenges of prioritizing the changes/repairs etc...
I like your idea of a cover but without offering the "open" ventilation, would the compartment be more likely to hang onto the vapours if they did escape and create a bigger risk?
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We fitted our furling system with a 135. It seems to have good shape and plenty of power. I just bought the same motor, but my 7.6 does not have a well, so a bracket will be installed on the stern. Was your 9.9 used last year? How responsive is it?
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Hey again Sean! - Yes, it's an endless list, eh. I generally prioritized by safety 1st (which can be from electrical, basic safety [e.g., radio, lights, fire extinguishers, sensors, LPG lockers, etc], to safe operation to crew safety, and beyond, eh), followed by basic function, followed by comfort/wishes. I just saw a book came into my mailbox that looks pretty good and actually has a section on prioritizing repairs/upgrades. It might have been nice to have 4 years ago when I bought my Kelt 7.60 as my 1st sailboat having just completed a 4-day CYA skipper cert course. It is appropriately called "This Old Boat" by Don Casey. I will pick it up from our Toronto nautical bookstore as I think it would still be great to have 4 years into it all. Here is the amazon.com url: http://www.amazon.com/This-Old-Boat-Second-Completely/dp/0071477942 which also allows you a peek inside. Another great way to prioritize is if you had a good survey done, as it should include all the deficiencies, including safety. The need for an LPG locker was one of the things in mine. But, it sounds like you may not have had a survey done? Another great resource is a magazine I subscribe to called "Good Old Boat". I really enjoy it. Very high quality content plus resources I don't see anywhere else: http://www.goodoldboat.com/ Back to the LPG locker: As mentioned above, it was cited as a safety issue and actually a regulation breaker. There is a detailed regulation (both US and Canadian, which are comparable if not the same), as to the current safety standard/set-up/design for marine LPG systems, including the locker requirements, as well as running lines, connections, sensor requirements, etc. LPG is a very significant safety risk on a boat, and from what I understand is the prominent cause of explosions on boats. Aside from it's obvious flammability/explosion concerns, it is heavier than air, so any leak will go to the lowest part of the boat. Think about how you evacuate LPG from your bilge without a spark hazard - Nearly impossible. So in answer to your very good and valid question: The locker HAS to have an open drain to the outside of the boat. There are standards as to the size, locker bottom placement, hull placement above the waterline at a certain degree heel, etc. Simply put, it is an appropriate sized/type hose connected to a fitting coming from the BOTTOM of the locker, running at a specific downward angle (to allow gravity to lead the leaked LPG out), and going through the hull above the water line. It is not valved, and remains open at all times. Without this, you are absolutely correct, in that your locker becomes a explosion hazard itself. I have included a URL below with issues related to installation, system requirements and some wild examples of bad things. In fact it's the 2nd Google result from "marine lpg installation" and actually produced from my surveyor. Good stuff! But also just Google "marine lpg installation [or] regulations" yourself, and you should also get the specific regulations by your respective authority. It is very specific as to the components of an LPG system, and even how to use it. Basically it includes but not limited to the following: - Sealed top-loading locker (mine is by liberal interpretation a top loading, but one could argue that it is front loading) - Drain to the outside of the boat (and no way to leak into the boat) - Be located away from ignition sources (e.g., batteries, switches, motors, etc.) - Quick release opening security (hand-opened, not tool-opened) - Pressure gauge (for indicating leaks - there's a procedure to perform the regular leak check, and a specific sequencing of what gets connected to what in what order, for installation) - Solenoid switch, operated from near the appliance - Tank securing method, e.g., strap - All gas-line connections are made INSIDE the locker - Single continuous hose to the appliance - LPG detector near the appliance - Open the tank valve only when using and close again when done - Leak check procedure performed regularly using the pressure gauge (basically you open the tank valve, while the appliance is shut off, but the solenoid is open, and see the pressure go up, then close the tank valve and watch that the pressure stays the same over a period of time, while the solenoid remains open, till you close it after the leak test.) You can see that the original system on our Kelts doesn't come anywhere near regs or safety standards and are a major hazard if not corrected - And SHOULD NOT be used until corrected. Also you'll see by my surveyor's article that many brand new boats have egregious shortfalls, in their design. (Sorry for the bad news [smile]) Here is the link to my surveyor's article: http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Safe%20Boat%20propane%20Installation.htm Good luck! And, again, sorry for the bad news. You can see why many people say to go alcohol, lol. Take care and keep me posted! - David David J. Wysocki, M.Sc., OT Reg. (Ont.) 1055 Dunbarton Rd Pickering, ON L1V 1H1 Ph: 905-492-1915 Fax: 905-831-8798 [hidden email] From: Sean [via Kelt Sailboat Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: April-16-13 7:21 AM
To: David - Moon Chaser
Subject: RE: [LPG Locker] Genoa Size for Foresail Furler Thanks for the prompt reply and insight. Our acquisition is a new one, so you can imagine the challenges of prioritizing the changes/repairs etc...
I like your idea of a cover but without offering the "open" ventilation, would the compartment be more likely to hang onto the vapours if they did escape and create a bigger risk?
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Greetings! - I absolutely LOVE my Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust motor. It is extremely responsive. I used to joke that with my old motor, I'd shift gears forward/reverse and be able to go down and make a sandwich and come back up before my boat will have started to changed direction, LOL. I also love that in reasonable conditions, I hit top speed at about 1/3 throttle (in fact just a hair above the "Warm Engine" dot!!). This means quieter operation, allows for me to hear myself think, or hear dawn/dusk loon calls while running. It also means I have a lot of spare capacity for storms, weeds, getting muck stuck, etc - all real issues on Lake Ontario and Frenchman's Bay. I do find that top speed is just above 6 knots, which is below hull speed. I don't know if it is the high-thrust or just the boat design that would run it at that speed regardless of motor configuration. But the responsiveness is so awesome while in port and docking I gladly give up that extra knot cruising for the high-thrust response and control. I believe my motor is a 2011 and have used it for 1.5 seasons. I just saw on the Yamaha site that they have just reconfigured it (for 2013?) with a smaller block and cowling - Almost like it was done just for us Kelt 7.60-ers [smile]. It looks to me that with the design change there would be no more issues with fit inside the motor well, with the exception of the prop not fitting through the hole. (I had to remove the prop and reinstall it in the water. Much less painful than it sounds. In fact with a friend handing me the parts, it went on quite easily, including being able to actually see [with swim goggles] the holes line up for the cotter pin!) Thanks much on the foresail size experience! I ended up 140 - a psychological compromise between my hanked-on 150 and suggested 135. I was also advised by my sailmaker to go with the lighter white UV strips, as the (smaller) size of the Kelt-7.60 140, it would perform better than with the heavier (Sunbrella??) coloured material. I did a Moon Chaser logo thing on mine - 12-inch lettering and logo, going vertically the entire height of the sail - Awesome!! (LOL). I should send in some pics, eh. Take care! - David David J. Wysocki, M.Sc., OT Reg. (Ont.) 1055 Dunbarton Rd Pickering, ON L1V 1H1 Ph: 905-492-1915 Fax: 905-831-8798 [hidden email] From: David [via Kelt Sailboat Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: April-16-13 7:46 AM
To: David - Moon Chaser
Subject: Re: Genoa Size for Foresail Furler We fitted our furling system with a 135. It seems to have good shape and plenty of power. I just bought the same motor, but my 7.6 does not have a well, so a bracket will be installed on the stern. Was your 9.9 used last year? How responsive is it?
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That's great news. My concern was responsiveness around the dock as well. They have reconfigured it for 2013 and the increase in propeller thrust over the standard 9.9 is quite remarkable.
The logo on the UV material for the furler is a great idea.
On another matter, I have a friend who recently brought his boat "MacIntosh" down to our area of Nova Scotia from Pickering. He mentioned that the trip down the St Lawrence and around to NS was quite a long trip, not for the timid.
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Locked
